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Author Topic : General traits and detailed traits
 Honey Rock Ranch
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4/9/2018 11:01:19 AM reply with quote send message to Honey Rock Ranch Object to Post   

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

Why are they different? Which ones do you use for the 40 day score? Especially it seems that the topline, and hindquarter can vary. When a cow is close to 400 days how is it best to know what her numbers are, not just ones that inflate with age?

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Last edited by Honey Rock Ranch on 4/9/2018 12:06:10 PM
 KL Farms
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4/9/2018 11:31:42 AM reply with quote send message to KL Farms Object to Post

Use detailed traits. General traits, specifically the hind, are the hind and stifle added together and divided to a lower number.
 Honey Rock Ranch
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4/9/2018 12:05:59 PM reply with quote send message to Honey Rock Ranch Object to Post

Thank you, any thoughts about the secondpart of the question? I edited it from 40 to 400 days old. Numbers that old cows have, how do you analyze them, or is that part of the fun/ challenge of this game?
 KL Farms
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4/9/2018 2:32:00 PM reply with quote send message to KL Farms Object to Post

I like to see what they can become and it helps to see what i want to use for breeding. To me an animal with a 16.0 cap as a 80 day old is good, but at 300 its not, as it keeps growing over time.

Keep in mind I have Angus, so other breeds that may be good.

 Black Hole Genetics
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4/9/2018 6:05:01 PM reply with quote send message to Black Hole Genetics Object to Post

quote
posted by Honey Rock Ranch
Thank you, any thoughts about the secondpart of the question? I edited it from 40 to 400 days old. Numbers that old cows have, how do you analyze them, or is that part of the fun/ challenge of this game?
You can't tell what the 40 day stats were when they are over 60 days old.

Too many variables cause too many differences in how fast they lose numbers and how quickly they gain again after 100 days:

-how old they are
-their sex
-every breed is different in how fast they lose and when they start gaining again(varies within breed, too)
-greatly depends on what feed they were on from 0-40 days AND what feed from 40+
-the animals pedigree

Customs will always show VERY inflated numbers over the age of 100. Numbers that do not translate to the calves. So, don't be fooled by seeing a 17+ Top/HQ on a 400 day old Angus(or whatever breed). It's not true.

To know a cows potential, you need to know 40 day stats and what it was fed.

Why Admin didn't just stop # growth at 40 days is beyond me. A lot of things don't make sense in this game.
 GrassFarmer
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4/9/2018 6:41:12 PM reply with quote send message to GrassFarmer Object to Post

It is as true as anything else. Just play the game.
 Black Hole Genetics
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4/9/2018 8:22:54 PM reply with quote send message to Black Hole Genetics Object to Post

quote
posted by GrassFarmer
It is as true as anything else. Just play the game.
What?

There's a reason 40 day stats are recorded. Whether customs or PSM.

 KL Farms
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4/9/2018 9:08:25 PM reply with quote send message to KL Farms Object to Post

Dookins, I have a 46 day old Angus that's 17.0 top so stop belly aching about customs being inflated terribly at 400 days.
 Dookins Crossing
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4/10/2018 8:52:37 AM reply with quote send message to Dookins Crossing Object to Post

quote
posted by KL Farms
Dookins, I have a 46 day old Angus that's 17.0 top so stop belly aching about customs being inflated terribly at 400 days.
So? 17 at 400 days doesn't tell you what they were at 40 days.

 KL Farms
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4/10/2018 12:48:32 PM reply with quote send message to KL Farms Object to Post

Point is that 17.0 isn't "terribly inflated". Whats she going to be at 400 days? 20.0 or better id wager.

I keep records and she was 16.8 at 40 days, and is now 17.0 a week later. That does tell me something about her.
 Dookins Crossing
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4/10/2018 2:50:42 PM reply with quote send message to Dookins Crossing Object to Post

quote
posted by KL Farms
Point is that 17.0 isn't "terribly inflated". Whats she going to be at 400 days? 20.0 or better id wager.

I keep records and she was 16.8 at 40 days, and is now 17.0 a week later. That does tell me something about her.

You do know that customs artificially increase the numbers after 40 days? Right? The 40 day numbers are the ones that indicate genetic potential.

If an animal was 15@40 days and then is 16.5@350 days.... The calves will not be 16.5. They will be around 15. Because the numbers don't matter after 40 days.

Doesn't matter what feed they are on. (I've been talking about BOTH customs and psm in this entire thread. Your attitude towards me is unwarranted)

On every other feed the numbers stop growing at 40 days, like they are suppose to. And fall. And then later in life, they start rising again. But the rise is not indicative of their calves genetic potential.

Also,
Customs are bugged. You may think you are feeding full fat, but not every animal will get full fat. (Ask Syonkers in chat about how customs are funked up right now).


I have a custom fed Maine that I bought. At 425 days she was 18+.
Can you tell me what she was at 40 days?

I have a PSM fed Maine that is 18.4 @ 415 days.
Can you tell me what she was at 40 days?

That's the point being made in this entire thread.
 KL Farms
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4/10/2018 7:58:31 PM reply with quote send message to KL Farms Object to Post

Dookins, first off my attitude towards you is based on your words and comments as a whole towards anyone and anything that you disagree with, in this case custom feeds.

2nd, having played this game for 4 years, and you having been here for 1, I kinda have reason to believe that I may know at least as much as you about it.

3rd, I can't tell you what other people's cattle are at at 40 days, only mine. Some folks are honest about numbers, others aren't, so a grain of salt must be taken with some folks.

4th, you know that not all cattle gain fat at the same rate. You claim that customs are bugged, yet your support is a person that has said something in a chat that isn't made public on this forum.

Enough from me now, this thread has been hijacked for long enough.
 S D Cattle
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4/10/2018 9:18:22 PM reply with quote send message to S D Cattle Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

The attitude towards customs is the same among all top breeders. PSM is the only way for apples to apples comparison of 40d stats. Yes. We record 40s because back before there was an error fixed long ago, everybody recorded 40d numbers for muscle because that was the max it would ever be; meaning the 40d numbers are what we rely on for genetic potential. Back in 07, 08 (yes, I have been playing for 10 years), we would also record 60d cap, as that's when it stopped growing. ALL PSM NUMBERS FOR COMPARISON ACROSS THE BOARD. Customs are disregarded as inflated as per example; a ranch posted a 67.X herf the other day, very few of us have 67s. This animals bone & neck were nowhere breed leading stats; it's overall score was inflated by customs having an effect on muscle & cap. Different feed levels at different ages have an enormous effect on results, hence the apples to oranges comparison of customs vs PSM. PSM is a preprogrammed feed, fed 0-40, for equal comparison, the only variable is the animals genetics & genetic potential. As far as customs being buggy, yes. It is. Very. I watch my steers like a hawk, muscle growth is very predictable.. I had steers stalling at around 3.0 fat... I killed approximately 40 steers because it ruined them. This pen of steers on 100-100-100 should be 10 fat... with the exception a very few left on PSM because of pen change & not changing feed, you can see how far off they are.

www.showcattle.com/herd.aspx?pasture=Bull%20Calves%20Penned&username=S%20D%20Cattle&sort=rrib

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Last edited by S D Cattle on 4/10/2018 9:18:38 PM
 Blue Moon Genetics
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4/10/2018 9:28:08 PM reply with quote send message to Blue Moon Genetics Object to Post

quote
posted by KL Farms
Dookins, first off my attitude towards you is based on your words and comments as a whole towards anyone and anything that you disagree with, in this case custom feeds.

2nd, having played this game for 4 years, and you having been here for 1, I kinda have reason to believe that I may know at least as much as you about it.

3rd, I can't tell you what other people's cattle are at at 40 days, only mine. Some folks are honest about numbers, others aren't, so a grain of salt must be taken with some folks.

4th, you know that not all cattle gain fat at the same rate. You claim that customs are bugged, yet your support is a person that has said something in a chat that isn't made public on this forum.

Enough from me now, this thread has been hijacked for long enough.

It's not hijacked.

It's good information that Honey Rock should be made aware of. The how's and why's of things that top ranches do.

This is a good learning thread.
happy :)
 KL Farms
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4/11/2018 7:34:39 AM reply with quote send message to KL Farms Object to Post

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SD,

Interesting read, however,you fail to take breed into account. Angus tend to fatten very quickly. I can have steers at 10.0 fat in less than 18 days. Stall out, nope, never had one stall out and fail to fatten up.

Congrats on 10 years of playing, that't a lot of determination.

You keep saying "top breeders" like there is some elite club of breeders that no one can ascend to ever. I would argue that there are a handful of breeders, myself included, that could compete with these "top breeders".

This whole argument is much like the question, what came first, the chicken or the egg? There is an impasse that has great arguments on both sides, for or against custom feeds. There are those that fight to keep any custom fed cattle from getting any type of notoriety, and those that continue to pursue the game while feeding customs.

I have twice built herds, from nothing, that can compete with any in the Angus and Red Angus breeds. Back in 2014, WHILE FEEDING PSM, there were many more players and it was a lot harder then than it is now. Some folks would hit 60000 show points in a month. Now 30000 seems to be the tops.

Speaking of showing, many of these "top breeders" don't put animals in shows, or only a few. JoJo has great animals and is championing the way for PSM, yet he seems to be alone at the top. Where are the rest of these "top breeders". I know, people will argue that they don't show, or the only way to get that many points is to show as many animals as possible, but I can argue that getting 2500 show points is extremely difficult in today's show atmosphere, and most animals wont hit 2000.

Compare animals in the ring. Hard to argue neck and bone when fighting the customs vs. psm fight.

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Last edited by KL Farms on 4/11/2018 7:46:52 AM
 S D Cattle
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4/11/2018 8:31:50 AM reply with quote send message to S D Cattle Object to Post

All British breeds fatten quickly compared to their continental counterparts; same way as real life, for the most part. My herf steers typically need to be switched to a holding ration at 16-18d, when customs was working properly. My reference to 'top breeders' are those with the highest scoring PSM animals; I started with herfs 2 years ago with average quality animals from public auction, a few bulls from MDR & have built a brand. Its not a 'club', its shear comparison of elite breeding pieces on each ranch. I do not show because it simply does not have an effect on the sale value of animals I offer. The last time I showed hard was when I lead the steer side for 2 months, then it turned boring.
 Dookins Crossing
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4/11/2018 9:33:14 AM reply with quote send message to Dookins Crossing Object to Post

quote
posted by KL Farms
SD,

Interesting read, however,you fail to take breed into account. Angus tend to fatten very quickly. I can have steers at 10.0 fat in less than 18 days. Stall out, nope, never had one stall out and fail to fatten up.

Congrats on 10 years of playing, that't a lot of determination.

You keep saying "top breeders" like there is some elite club of breeders that no one can ascend to ever. I would argue that there are a handful of breeders, myself included, that could compete with these "top breeders".

This whole argument is much like the question, what came first, the chicken or the egg? There is an impasse that has great arguments on both sides, for or against custom feeds. There are those that fight to keep any custom fed cattle from getting any type of notoriety, and those that continue to pursue the game while feeding customs.

I have twice built herds, from nothing, that can compete with any in the Angus and Red Angus breeds. Back in 2014, WHILE FEEDING PSM, there were many more players and it was a lot harder then than it is now. Some folks would hit 60000 show points in a month. Now 30000 seems to be the tops.

Speaking of showing, many of these "top breeders" don't put animals in shows, or only a few. JoJo has great animals and is championing the way for PSM, yet he seems to be alone at the top. Where are the rest of these "top breeders". I know, people will argue that they don't show, or the only way to get that many points is to show as many animals as possible, but I can argue that getting 2500 show points is extremely difficult in today's show atmosphere, and most animals wont hit 2000.

Compare animals in the ring. Hard to argue neck and bone when fighting the customs vs. psm fight.

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Last edited by KL Farms on 4/11/2018 7:46:52 AM

Most of the "top breeders", if they fed customs, would blow the other customs breeders out of the water if they showed regularely and with as much confiction.

But their cattle already bring 200k-2MILLION a piece, so they don't care as much about showing. It's not worth the effort.

They don't have to try and prove they have good cattle, by being 1st in shows. The prices their cattle sell for says it all.

Most top breeders of the highly competitive breeds are in the Slack Chat. Which is not hidden. It's been posted over and over in the forums. Anyone is welcome to join at any time. There are many sales that happen in there, with top breeders sharing their genetics and more than willing to try and help someone if they need it.

Since joining, my herds have jumped significantly and I've learned a lot. Herefords are the most competitive breed now, and while mine aren't top herd, I am in the top percent. Thanks to those top breeders in the chat.
 KL Farms
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4/11/2018 10:15:17 AM reply with quote send message to KL Farms Object to Post

This whole discussion has me very interested in an experiment. I am going to take my next few prospects out of my custom fed cattle and feed them their psm til 40 days to prove that i have used breeding to quantify herd improvement over the last 6 months. My donors that I will use were fed PSM and I know their 40 day stats. My bulls were fed customs so it wont truly be a double blind test, but non the less I know where I was 6 months ago and have a fairly decent idea of where I will be at the end of the trial.
 Dookins Crossing
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4/11/2018 10:35:42 AM reply with quote send message to Dookins Crossing Object to Post

quote
posted by KL Farms
This whole discussion has me very interested in an experiment. I am going to take my next few prospects out of my custom fed cattle and feed them their psm til 40 days to prove that i have used breeding to quantify herd improvement over the last 6 months. My donors that I will use were fed PSM and I know their 40 day stats. My bulls were fed customs so it wont truly be a double blind test, but non the less I know where I was 6 months ago and have a fairly decent idea of where I will be at the end of the trial.
No one has ever said that you can't get herd improvement when on customs.

But, sounds like a good experiment if done from 1 day old calves. Experiments are always good.
 Diversify
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4/12/2018 5:15:28 PM reply with quote send message to Diversify Object to Post

quote
posted by KL Farms
This whole discussion has me very interested in an experiment. I am going to take my next few prospects out of my custom fed cattle and feed them their psm til 40 days to prove that i have used breeding to quantify herd improvement over the last 6 months. My donors that I will use were fed PSM and I know their 40 day stats. My bulls were fed customs so it wont truly be a double blind test, but non the less I know where I was 6 months ago and have a fairly decent idea of where I will be at the end of the trial.
Please post back on here at the end of the trial if you will KL, I would really like to hear the outcome. I have stuck with PSM for my breeding and show cattle, because of them being broken, even tho as a little breeder with only 1 ranch, it costs me a small fortune. Believe me, I'd much rather feed customs for free. it would save me a lot of $$

As far as the showing goes, I actually really wish more people would show. I get all excited when I win breed championships, then sad when I go to look, and i was the only one in the breed sad :(
 S D Cattle
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5/29/2018 4:09:03 PM reply with quote send message to S D Cattle Object to Post

How'd those PSM animals turn out? ... I'm up to 68.1 PSM fed...

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